January 10, 2012. Hard to believe we have gone 5 years without this subject ending up in our Technical Section. I hope we can get more comments/experiences from readers. Thanks to Jonnie Walker, Yankee #227, here we go. Minor edits.

Hi Ron,

I've finally gotten as far with Interlux as I can, and so now I'm ready to tell my story.

Last year I spent a lot of time effort and money sanding the decks of Madalyn Joy #227 and sprayed Interlux Brightsides in accordance with Interlux's help and instructions. I left her out for the winter and went to Florida...rebuilt the centerboard while there....and then went back to Tennessee.

When I got back I was devistated because the paint I had so carefully put on....was flaking off in three places!

I wasn't sure what I was going to do....so I sanded and prepped the topsides...and then stripped the bottom....and when I was finally at the point where I had to put paint on her....I decided I wanted all that flaking Brightsides off my boat!

So when contacting Interlux...they said oh, its flaking? Must be migration. What? Interlux makes yacht paint that can't get wet?

There is a long thread about this....on the Yacht Paint Forum which is Interlux's site....

http://www.yachtpaintforum.com/brightsides-failure_topic496.html

You can read it there....now....the "extended period of time" is quite insulting since they recommended Brightsides to be used as a bilge paint. Anyway, Interlux officially said that they do not have any product that is suitable for my Dolphin 24...so I would assume all Dolphin 24s are included.

After this.....I took a break. Morgan and I are cruising on our Cal this winter. We are in Clearwater, Florida now and on our way to the Keys. This spring when I get back I am going to strip the decks....Interlux products are not good enough for a Dolphin....

I have heard good things about HMG.....and also Imron.....any paint suggestions?

If gel coat wasn't so much sanding I'd re-gelcoat it.

-j

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Webmaster Note: Since I recall telling Jonnie that I used Interlux Brightsides to paint Marionette's topsides, and feel some remorse at his experience, I need to pass along my story. I bought Marionette in the winter of 1995 and her white gel coat was very faded. I really wanted to two part paint spray her (I really, really wanted to Awlgrip her - $$$!!) but was put off by no experience or equipment for spraying, by fear of screwing up, and fear of inhalation.

So, after several conversations with 'experts', I decided to brush paint Marionette's topsides using Brightsides. I first gave her a very thorough sanding, and filled any surface defects using their recommended filler. Then, after cleaning with their recommended thinner/cleaner I brushed on 2 coats of their recommended undercoat - lightly sanding between coats. Then, another light sanding and cleaning was followed by seven (7!) brushed on coats of Brightsides. I did not sand between these coats, applying the next coat usually within 8-12 hours. I think it was June - long days. I remember waiting for a weather window. It came out beautifully. I remember showing off how I could see my reflection in the topsides.

Marionette had Dynel covered plywood decks and solid mahogany cabin sides. After discussions with West Systems tech people I decided to strip off the Dynel from the decks, sand, then coat the plywood with epoxy, resand, and paint with a high quality alkyd Benjamin Moore house paint! No hassle, no problems - lasts about 5-6 years, no blisters or flaking. BTW, for all of my down below white surface painting, including the bilge areas below the sole, but not the sump area where the bilge pump resides (no paint), I use a high quality Benjamin & Moore alkyd house paint. It works and does not flake. Webmaster Note: May 7, 2012. This year I tried a new Benjamin & Moore latex based paint, designed, they say to match, performance wise, their high quality Alkyd - clean up much easier, we'll see...

About 5 years after I painted the topsides I began to notice several small blisters in the paint particularly on the port side low near the water. My boat is kept in a slip exposed to the SW sun on the portside. Interestingly it seemed worse up near the bow and under the port quarter. The starboard side seemed much better. I think that these are areas that are 'wetter' as the hull flares and little wavelets splash up - and - the sunlight/UV reflects off the water... (my theory). Anyway, I broke open the blisters (they were dry) and patched/filled using 3M's Marine Putty, and touched up for a couple of years with marginal results. Then around 2002/3, or so, I sanded the entire topsides, applied an undercoat, and 5 coats of Brightsides. Four or five years later, same results in same general locations, resulting a few years of patching and touchup. Then, in 2011, so she would not be embarrassed in a head to head meeting with Angel, Mike Horn's Yankee #73 up in Islesboro, Maine, I resanded the top sides, no undercoat and brushed on 3 coats of Brightsides.

The boat was on a mooring most of 2011 up in Maine, and, after one season looks good, although some of the fill and patch repairs show through a bit as a slight discoloration. I notice that I see more brush strokes and the occasional drip line - I think over the years I have just come to accept a less than perfect job. Also, here again, a theory, there are so many coats of Brightsides that if I do get a chip or blister, its pretty deep and takes 'a lot' of filler.

Another interesting bit - I intentionally apply my bottom paint to about 1" above the waterline. This to avoid scum on my green bootstripe - which is also Brightsides. And, a side benefit, I thought that this would psyche out racing competitors as they would think I was light :-) This, without my realizing it, probably helped me avoid much of the Brightside problem we are discussing.

Ps After writing the above I was taking my afternoon nap and could not sleep thinking about this matter. If I had this flaking problem after one season I'd be seriously pissed particularly if the reason given me was 'migration' or words like "it's getting wet". In the early years before launching in the Spring I gave my topsides a heavy coat of good quality paste boat wax and buffed with a power buffer, which may have helped protect the paint. In later years I sometimes used a liquid wax like Johnson's Boat Wax/Cleaner and buffed by hand. I'll bet this is not as good.

I have a few, very fine, hairline type vertical cracks in the paint. The cracks were there in the gel coat in the beginning but so thin nothing would fill the crack except paint. After a couple of coats of paint the cracks were no longer visible. However, after a year or two, they would eventually reappear but not get worse. I have aways thought these were 'stress cracks' due to hull flexing - I no longer worry about them as long as the hull finish passes the 5' test (can't see it unless closer)

Stay Tuned

January 12, 2012. Clinton Hodges is in the middle of his restoration project on Windswept too, Yankee #245 and has more than casual interest in this subject. There's more on Windswept too's page regarding his prep work and priming. Here is his email (edited)

I'm interested to know a little more about Johnny's preparation of the deck relative to the issues regarding Interlux Brightside paint. On Windswept toos' topsides I went (down) to the gel coat because I didn't know what the existing coats of paint consisted of and the gel coat was grazed anyway and from there followed Interlux' s instructions for applying their epoxy primer and Brightside.

So far the new paint has seen copious amounts of rainfall, snow, and cold temperatures as low as -15f. As you are aware urethane paints are really fickle so I made sure to never apply it unless it was 50f and humidity in the 30%-40%. Thinning was necessary but nothing like they do down in Florida. But we'll see what happens with the deck. I'm hoping there will be no issues and I thank Johnny for the heads up regarding standing water.  

I hope to continue on where I left off with the thru hulls and begin the tedious work of prepping the deck for paint and non-skid. I understand what Johnny is saying about the lack of information contained in the labeling instructions. Clearly, water shouldn't stand on Brightside for any length of time. Where on Johnny's Dolphin does such a condition exist? (see below) The toe rails that I removed from Windswept too were fabricated to drain water from the low lying areas of the deck, which is one area I can think of that water will not drain, but this is hardly enough of a reason not to use Brightside.  

In any event I intend to use Brightside on the deck but only after prepping the hull from the gel coat out and using epoxy primer. I wish Interlux would last longer and I think it will in a cooler environment but I don't have any unrealistic expectations either. My concern, like yours, is costs.

Take care and thanks for all the wonderful work you do for us and our Dolphins.

Regards, Clinton
Windswept too #245

Jonnie answers Clinton's questions: 1) Where did the flaking conditions exist? and 2) more info about prepping.

1) port and starboard, deck to cabin house juncture....below portlights, and in the cockpit on the step next to the companionway. Our hard dinghy is painted with Easypoxy and its not having issues after being towed 1300 miles. They said even their two part (systems) would migrate...

2) I sanded everything down to either gelcoat or fiberglass....some of the gelcoat had worn off and it was already bare fiberglass. Then I used Intelux's Prekote, which is the appropriate  primer, and did the solvent wash, with Interlux's 206 solvent, and did the wipe after sand coats with Interlux 333 brushing fluid, and thinned with Interlux's 216 special thinner. In other words, I did it by the book the way they said to.

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May 7, 2012. Marcia Green, Timesweep, Yankee #214, sent in the following email - with a lot of supplier technical feedback.

Dear Ron,

Thanks much for starting the discussion on hoses. Since "Timesweep" is out of the water I have not gotten around to replacing her cockpit drain hose. Currently I'm faced with a different problem.

A friend and I are in the process of sanding her in preparation for a complete repainting from top to bottom. She has been painted twice both times using a one-part paint. We used Pettit Easypoxy the first time around and the second we used Interlux Brightside. The sanding has been painful and tedious. On the hull we kept coming up with a paint ridge which definitely would show in the 3rd. painting effort so essentially we ended up taking a good part of the paint off.

We were less successful with the topsides and it is much rougher especially in the sections with 90 degree curves. Most sanders won't get into these tight areas so hand sanding is about the best we can do. There is a definite paint buildup in these areas. Because there is still paint residue on the topsides and less so on the hull we can't use a two-part paint. In most sections we found it necessary to use 60 and/or 80 grit paper following up with 120. Consequently some of the gel coat has been sanded off leaving very dark spots. The gel coat which remains is quite crazed and that definitely shows through the paint after 8 or so years. We have uncovered some areas with pinholes and of course there are inevitable cracks and holes etc. which need to be filled.

We purchased Interlux Surfacing Putty, which is one part, thinking it would be ideal to fill these areas but after carefully reading the directions discovered that all paint needs to be removed from the area to be filled. The Interlux tech confirmed this to be true and added that some of the chemicals in it would cause paint to lift. We also had planned to use this putty to fill areas, dings, etc. that might show up after our use of prekote primer as suggested by an individual who wrote up his experiences on the internet. So we asked what we could use that would be compatible with the paint and the tech suggested Interlux Watertight and Marinetex if the paint has been 'cured'.

I note that in your discussion of painting Marionette you mentioned repairing small areas using a filling compound and paint. What product did you use? See Below Do you have any recommendations as to what filling/fairing products would be compatible with a previously painted surface? Do you know of anyone who has used gel coat to fill pinholes and small gouges and that sort of thing? NO Do you think it could go over paint? I guess what I'm looking for is some sort of product that would work somewhat like spackle and/or drywall compound when doing interior painting. For patching dings, scratches, pinholes, crazing, above waterline I use 3M Marine putty - seems to work ok with the Brightside. Also, the undercoat primer applied a couple of times, sanded between coats fills/hides the crazing cracks. The best is as the tech guys say, sand down to glass, fill per their recommendations, prime/undercoat, etc, etc. but who has time for all that. The patching holds for 2-3 years then, patch again.

The nonskid hasn't been painted previously. We plan to do that this time around also and the tech told us that using the Interlux Surfacing Putty would work there. We also asked the tech if Brightside would be compatible with West System and were told, yes, if it were primed with Epoxy Primecote or InterProtect 2000E which would seal it. If it weren't sealed off "any remaining amine blush will work its way up and through the primer layer which in turn would react with the driers in Brightside and prevent proper curing." Perhaps this info would be useful for others faced with a similar painting project.

Thanks,

Marcia

Checking on the 3M Marine Putty link above, I found that this product is now obsolete! Fortunately, I still have a nearly full tube. This is apparently replaced by http://3mcollision.com/products/fillers-and-glaze/putty/3m-acryl-marine-putty-white-05095.html. Looks the same, smaller tube.

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June 28, 2012. Larry Duthie, co-owner of Thistle, Yankee #99, raised some questions regarding his plans to redo the decks of Thistle. The exchange is repeated here.

Today I was just about to place an order for Interlux Brightside in both white and beige in order to paint the decks and cabin in those two colors (with non-skid and flattening agent in the beige for the non-skid areas). This will be another labor-intensive project, because I’ll be removing stanchions, chainplate fittings, padeyes, and so forth – and I expect to run into some recalcitrant fasteners along the way. There will be some patching involved, and plenty of sanding. For those reasons, I want to ensure that I’m using durable deck paint on this project.

I read your May 7th update dealing with deck paints. In it, you talk about using a new Benjamin Moore house paint (after some very good luck with an earlier product). Certainly I’d love to save a little money, but more importantly, I want the best results. So if I choose to follow you on this paint, here are my questions:

1. Is the product you are using that company’s premium latex exterior paint? If so, I would lean toward the soft-gloss, which they call “Ben.” Roland has begged me not to get the house and decks too glossy, and I agree with him, which is why I’d choose this version of the Benjamin Moore line. But please correct me if I’m headed for trouble.
2. What do you recommend for a primer under this paint?
3. I’d like to use the flattening agent and the non-skid, both Interlux products, that I already have on hand, but I wonder if they are compatible with the latex paint. Your thoughts on this?
4.  I won’t hold you responsible, of course, but I really would like to hear your thoughts. You race and use your boat a lot, so even by now, you should have some idea how the new paint will fare under use.

You webmaster replies:

The Benjamin Moore paint I used last on my decks was BM Alkyd Low Luster, Metal/Wood Enamel (Formula Mediium Base, C1632B, Claret Jug 2A23-4). The last time I painted the deck/house and cockpit was Winter/Spring 2010/2011, so this coating has had only full one season - so far looks fine. This paint has been excellent for me over 17 years. These surfaces, unlike yours, are epoxy coated and well sanded plywood. I don't remember what I used for an undercoat, and could not find my notes on it. Other than occasional touchup this last painting was the 3rd time I completely painted those surfaces in 17 years - so the 'life' is at least 5 years - I never had 'flaking"

Note: I understand that BM has reformulated this Alkyd paint - now called P-23, Metal Super Spec, and is recomending for used on Metal only....

For the non skid areas I used the same paint and taped off the 'skid' area. Then I gave the non skid area a coat of paint and using my made up glass jar with multiple small holes I had punched in cover. I sprinked the wet surface area with the standard 'grit' you can buy. After it dried, I stripped off the tape from the skid area and gave all the surfaces another coat of paint. I'm satified with the outcome. I did not like mixing the grit into the paint as it seems to get unevenly spread. Years ago with another boat I tried a paint with the non skid grit already mixed in it and I spent a lot of time just trying to get it mixed evenly - unsatisfactory. With the manual sprinkling method you can just sprinkle more grit in an area you think needs it.

When I went this past spring to buy some White BM Alkyd High Gloss Metal/Wood Enamel (which I also used in the past on my internal hull surfaces, and white wood surfaces, lockers and seats, my paint store guy told it was no longer available - that for environmental reasons BM had replaced it with a very high quality Latex based exterior paint. I reluctantly used it - right over my sanded old alkyd white paint. Seems ok but its really too early to tell re longevity - and its not exposed to the sun - a big factor. I also used it in the bilges and anchor locker way up forward - I rarely get water in the boat, I have no leaks - my only problem is condensation. I do drain my water tank occasionally into the bilge, and the water from my cooler. No question about easier clean up with the Latex based paint. I do not paint deep in the sump where there is always a little bit of water that the auto bilge pump can't get out.

If I were to use this Latex base paint again, and needed an undercoat, I would use BM's Acryllic Bonding Primer which has a Latex base.

Ron

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Thanks very much for the information, Ron. I'll speak with a local paint rep to decide on primer compatibility. Larry

October 4, 2012 We have an update and interchange which adds to this story, and our collective understanding (minor edits). Some of this might be repetitive but that's the nature of this activity...

From: Larry Duthie
To: ronbreault <ronbreault@dolphin24.org>
Sent: Tue, Oct 2, 2012
Subject: Deck Paint

I may be repeating myself here, as I tried to ask this question earlier. However, it may have gone off into space – a problem I occasionally have.

I am half-owner of Thistle, a Yankee Dolphin that for over two decades had been based in Olympia, WA under the ownership of Roland Thompson. Rowland couldn’t bring himself to sell us all of the boat, so he kept half. She now lives on a trailer in our barn when she isn’t in her slip at the Walla Walla (WA) Yacht Club on the Columbia River, or sailing among the San Juan Islands in Puget Sound. Our contribution to this partnership has been to buy the trailer and perform a number of upgrades. She now has new life lines, new standing rigging, roller furling, a refurbished boom, new main and headsail and refinishing of all brightwork. During the next couple weeks I intend to strip hardware off her decks and paint them (along with the house and cockpit, of course).

Here’s the question: I was set to use Interlux Bightside enamel. However, I saw that you mentioned using Benjamin Moore house paint on your decks, and you said you applied a new system in May. How is it holding up, and what is it that you are using? I’d love to save a few bucks, but more importantly, end up with decks that could easily be touched up.

Thank you for your time.

Larry Duthie

Your Webmaster replies (minor edits):

On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 2:39 PM, <ronbreault@cs.com> wrote:

Hi Larry

The decks now have 4 more months exposure and looks ok. I am painting epoxy covered, 52 yr old plywood, so I get a few 'stress' cracks but ok, I think. No flaking or chipping on the decks/cockpit areas. Of course, this deck paint is all academic since you no longer can buy this exact product. I am going to have to do some touch up before next season, and I will use the Benjamin & Moore reformulated Alkyd paint - now called P-23, Metal Super Spec, it is recomended for used on Metal only...but my paint guy says the die hard painters are using it on high gloss/high wear wood applications as they are committed to Alkyd....

I used BM's new latex based replacement for Alkyd this past spring - white - for bilge area/lockers/transom well. I did get some flaking but I also know I could have prepped better. Also, it seems this paint is not as 'hard' and marks up more.

I have used Interlux Brightsides for my topsides for several years - my comments - see comments near top of this page - they still stand

The Benjamin Moore paint I used last on my decks was BM Alkyd Low Luster, Metal/Wood Enamel (Formula Mediium Base, C1632B, Claret Jug 2A23-4). The last time I painted the deck/house and cockpit was Winter/Spring 2010/2011, so this paint has had only full one season - so far looks fine. This paint has been excellent for me over 17 years. These surfaces, unlike yours are epoxy coated and well sanded plywood. I don't remember what I used for an undercoat. Other than occasional touchup this last painting was the 3rd time I painted those surfaces in 17 years - so the 'life is at least 5 years - I never had 'flaking".

For the non skid areas I used the same paint and taped off the 'skid' area. Then I gave the non skid area a coat of paint and using my made up glass jar with multiple small nail holes I had punched in the cover. I sprinked the wet surface area with the standard 'grit' you can buy. After it dried, I stripped off the tape from the skid area and gave all the surfaces another coat of paint. I'm satified with the outcome. I did not like mixing the grit into the paint as it seems to get unevenly spread. Years ago with another boat I tried a paint with the non skid grit already mixed in it and I spent a lot of time just trying to get it mixed evenly - unsatisfactory. With the manual sprinkling method you can just sprinkle more grit in an area you think needs it.

When I went this past spring to buy some White BM Alkyd High Gloss Metal/Wood Enamel (which I used in the past on my internal hull surfaces, and white wood surfaces, lockers and seats, my paint store guy told it was no longer available - that for environmental reasons BM had replaced it with a very high quality Latex based paint. I reluctantly used it - right over my old alkyd white paint. Seems ok but its really too early to tell re longevity - and its not exposed to the sun. I also used it in the bilges and anchor locker way up forward - I rarely get water in the boat, I have no leaks - my only problem is condensation. I do drain my water tank occasionally into the bilge, and the water from my cooler. No question about easier clean up with the Latex based paint. I do not paint deep in the sump where there is always a little bit of water that Bilge pump can't get out.

Ron

Larry responds

To: ronbreault <ronbreault@cs.com>
Cc: Rowland Thompson
Sent: Wed, Oct 3, 2012 1:42 pm
Subject: Re: Deck Paint

Hi Ron,

Thanks for the additional information. During some discussion with Rowland, we agreed that a very glossy house and decks would be a bit much for Thistle. I therefore elected to go with Brightsides cut with their recommended Interlux flattening agent.

Oh my gosh. I do wish I had gone some other route: Brush-marks!

In some areas I have sanded ugly areas flat in order to apply another coat -- ready for this -- six times. Yep, six. And I've still got a few unsatisfactory spots that call for a seventh go at it. The problem seems to be that the flattening agent does not flow at all well. We now have some cooler temperatures on this side of the state, so I am hoping that the cooler temps will allow the flattened paint time to flow properly.

Thinning? Oh yes, many attempts to find the ideal viscosity. I referred to Don Casey's method of testing for proper thinning. He suggests applying the paint to a clean sheet of glass propped up vertically, and thinning until brush marks disappear (after two minutes). This happens to be just before sags and runs begin. Didn't work for me. When it was perfect on the glass, the surface of the previous coat on the boat would suck up enough solvent from the paint to make it unworkable. The flattening agent is the culprit. Those were some of the worst brush-marked areas. The paint required even more thinning, and it requires keeping a wet edge throughout the application. (By the way, keeping a wet edge around the decks and the house requires some real strategic planning to accomplish.)

Roll and tip? Worked fine on the glass, but not the boat. And I have successfully used this technique in the past.

During our early discussions, Rowland had suggested I mask the entire boat and shoot it with a gun. I had just finished painting an Alfa Romeo, with the help of my neighbor (a former body-shop foreman), and that paint-job resulted in a show-quality finish. But I knew from that experience how very difficult all the prep and masking had been, so I resisted. This week I'm going to give the deck and house one more coat (using the very best brush West Marine sells). If that effort doesn't turn out nice, I'm going to order some more paint and Interlux spraying solvent. I'll then mask Thistle from the keel up and beg my talented neighbor to wield the gun.

One other issue: Interlux warns that paint mixed with the flattening agent covers poorly. I can attest to that. Even without the brush-mark issues, it would have taken four coats at least over the areas where gelcoat had worn down to the black fiberglass. Maybe five.

I have set some high standards for myself, because stripping all the hardware off the decks is such a huge project. It makes no sense to go to all that work and have paint that, as the sun sets, glaringly shows brush-marks. How could one ever enjoy a sun-downer cocktail looking at such a deck?

Would this have gone better had I chosen the BM paint you suggested? Very possibly, but that's academic now. The cockpit is finished and looks okay. (The non-skid areas, by the way, were rolled with flattened beige Interlux, and they look terrific after three coats.) There is no going back, so I'll continue on this course and -- maybe by the end of this week -- have decks that look suitable for our fine boat. Come hell or high water, she'll look great next spring.

Larry Duthie

And a Webmaster reply - very important for all of us

From ronbreault ronbreault@cs.com
To larryduthie
Sent: Wed, Oct 3, 2012
Subject: Re: Deck Paint

Hi Larry

This is all a matter of knowing the rules on amateur boat painting. #1) the 10 ft test - brush marks not visible at 10' don't exist. #2) spraying is the way to go but amateurs risk serious inhalation injury. #3) the pretty boat rule - Dolphin 24s are basically 'pretty boats' and as such, they don't need exceptionally pretty dress - just be neat, clean, etc., and their innate prettiness shows through...

After 17 years of caring for Marionette - with all paint work done by brush - and with more brush marks than I care to admit, she gets "pretty boat" on a regular, and sustaining basis.

The BM enamels are more 'forgiving' re brush marks than Brightsides - I see no brush marks on my decks - they are horizontal surfaces. The top sides are vertical surfaces so brush marks are more problematic. My house is mahogany and there I have vertical surfaces - I use Epiphanes hi fil wood gloss, and as long as I don't rush I don't get runs. I never get brush marks.

My non skid areas are simple wet paint with non skid particles distributed by hand from a hand made shaker with a perforated screw-on-top (glass jar with small nail holes punched in the metal screw on lid). Then a covering finish coat. Any area that looks like it is particle starved gets another shake (My son, a national 420 class champ, collegiate all american sailor, and all around top racing sailor is very complimentary on my non skid...)

I agree, keeping a 'wet edge' is very important.

I'll bet that your photos from 3000 miles will be great!!! Don't forget to send them in. When time permits I'll get our exchange up in the appropriate Technical Section and together we will provide reassurance to the next guy. Thanks for sharing

Ron